GPFL Coordinating Council Minutes
January 26, 2015
Facilitator: Cathy Gilbert
Attending:
Victor Agosto
DJ Chandler
Shawna Doran
Chris Eiler
Cathy Gilbert
Jeremy Griffin
Peter Harrell
Jim Howe
Henry Lawrence
Harry Patterson
Jeff Roby
Rose Roby
Steve Showen
Gilbert: Hi, Peter, how are you?
Harrell: Fine, thanks.
Patterson: Harry.
Gilbert: Hi, Harry. Trying to download the latest mail, trying to get the latest agenda.
Patterson: I printed out the last night’s agenda, don’t know if …
Gilbert: While, what’s happening on the list is reflective a bigger issue we’re going to have to address, I don’t know if we’re prepared to address it fully or properly on the call, not to say it’s not a high priority, but I’m thinking maybe I need to talk to a few people, see what we can do, and on this call we can just go through a the agenda items. I don’t know how you guys feel.
Harrell: I feel like that’s a good idea, providing that there isn’t any intervention needed on this call, of course, we’ll have to deal with that somehow.
Gilbert: Once people are on the call, I think I’ll just address that, so we can all have the same expectations for the call. Then at some point, this week maybe there could even be a committee that works on this, but I don’t think tonight is the time to hash things out.
Patterson: Probably just as well.
Doran: Hello. We’ve got Steve …
Showen: and Peter and Harry.
Doran: Just Alachua and Miami. Yaaaay!
Eiler: Chris from Tampa.
[hellos all around]
Eiler: Can I say something before we start.
Gilbert: Just before you say that, I just want to say that tonight is not the place to hash out all the material that’s going on right now.
Eiler: Only thing I wanted to say is that I’m at work, I can only listen, so I’m going to send Cathy and Josh Tampa’s report, and then they can post it on the Council, so if anyone’s interested in what Tampa’s doing, they can just read it. That’s it for now. I’ll be listening. So when you do roll call, just say “here” for me, would you.
[discussion of how to mute and pause phone]
Jeff Roby: Jeff here. Rose will be on in just a moment.
Gilbert: Chris is going to be sending a Tampa report, he’s at work so he cannot speak, so he’s going to be sending an e-mail. I’m having trouble loading e-mail. Harry, would you be able to forward e-mail if Chris sent it to you.
[Harry gives e-mail address]
Gilbert: DJ, are you on the call? [no] Okay, roll call, today is Monday, January 26, 2015, Council call. Call out locals.
Showen: Miami [Cathy and Steve], Broward … Alachua [Shawna, Peter] Bay [Henry], Tampa [Chris], St. Pete [Jeff and Rose], Orlando [Jim, Nelson not able to make it].
Gilbert: Thank you everybody. I’ve noted that there’s a lot going on the list, and I know it’s a priority as far as having a functional Council to address how we deal with each other. However, I feel unprepared for that to be the topic of this call. So I’m going to ask if we cannot go into the personal issues right now, we can have a committee appointed, or we can have another special call, but that tonight we go through the agenda we have [Jeff stack], and should be able to discuss on the call, that we not make any personal remarks or attacks or anything like that, that was my suggestion.
Jeff Roby: I would like to say a few things about threats of physical violence.
Lawrence: Stand down, buddy! Stand down! And I don’t want to delay deliberating and wait until next month.
Jeff Roby: No.
Lawrence: Yes.
Gilbert: So Jeff, you were saying you would like the threats of physical violence address. But not going into the specific threats but you want to talk about a policy …
Jeff Roby: No, I want to go into the specific threats …
Lawrence: [shouting] Go away, Jeff!
Gilbert: No that was Harry. I think things are very hot now, I would like to, we can talk, maybe about the list needs to be on moderation, where posts need to be approved before they go through. Anything that has personal attacks and complaints …
[Henry shouting in the background[
Gilbert: Only because there are going to be so many. But I don’t want to be able, I don’t think we’re equipped to handle on this call …
Jeff Roby: No. I think that personal attacks are one thing, but threats of violence is a matter that is something that’s completely different, and more serious and intolerable.
Lawrence: [shouting] I’m not going to put up with this shit!
Gilbert: Jeff, if we want to deal with threats, not the specific threats, but if we want to have a policy forward, one thing I’m suggesting is that the e-list be moderated temporarily. I don’t want to go into specific accusations because it’s going to be more than we can handle on this call.
Jeff Roby: I can be outvoted, but I do not agree. Threats of physical violence are not going to be swept under the rug.
Gilbert: Is anyone on the call that was not on the roll call [DJ, Jeremy]
[DJ repeats roll call]
Griffin: Chris technically lives in St. Pete but he hangs out with Tampa.
Jeff Roby: Who is it lives in St. Pete but hangs out with Tampa?
Griffin: Don’t fucking worry about it, you’ll figure it out.
Jeff Roby: If he’s on the call, I have a right to know who’s on the call.
Gilbert: As I was saying, on this call, I would like to request that it is of critical importance, I don’t feel that we’re equipped to deal with it on this call without having more personal attacks, we can have an expert, or have a committee address it, but I don’t want to try to unravel specific accusations on the call, if that is okay with people, and that we address the agenda without any kind of personal attacks and that we treat each other with respect on the call. So Jeff …
Griffin: … that loudmouth. You’ve turned into such a bunch of fucking pussies …
Gilbert: Jeremy, I believe, just left the call. Jeff, I know you would like to raise the issue about physical threats, again, I’d like to have it only if it’s addressed as a general policy or approach rather than about specific …
Jeff Roby: Then I can do so.
Gilbert: So I would like to accept that Jeff make his comments about general attacks, not about anyone in particular, maybe this can be useful.
Doran: Perhaps you can fit that into the agenda, or have some kind of time limit, or I’m hanging up too.
Gilbert: I know that the things that have been happening on the list are important, and any kinds of accusations or threats, or that I’m dismissing them, or saying they are less priority, but I’m saying that on this call, when they are at this hot moment, and Jeff, we can talk later …
Jeff Roby: No. We’ve gone over a certain edge, and no I don’t have to address anything said but by any certain individual, but I do have some comments, since you are going to be moderating, and I don’t particularly trust your judgment. That’s a fact.
Gilbert: I’m not making a judgment …
Jeff Roby: I’m not waiting another month. I need five minutes.
Gilbert: Is it okay with people for two minutes. Okay Jeff, you have two minutes.
Jeff Roby: So I’m someone who’s also been on the street, certain people aren’t the only people. Okay, the way that violent threats work is that you say something like “I’d really like to break your arms and legs. But I really won’t do it. The result is that the threat is made, but seemingly negated, because the “but I won’t do it” makes it not actionable in a court of law. But there is this concept of law called “fighting words.” [quotes] “Fighting words are written or spoken words, generally expressed to incite hatred or violence from their target. Specific definitions, freedoms, and limitations of fighting words vary by jurisdiction. It is also used in a general sense of words that when uttered tend to create (deliberately or not) a verbal or physical confrontation by their mere usage.’ In other words, it’s not just rude. It’s illegal in certain jurisdictions, I don’t know about Florida. Physical threats such as have been delivered, which I have a list of but will not go into, simply should not be tolerated. Zero. If you’re moderating, anything hinting, of smacking in the face, or other real people will take care of you, or you’ll be sorry if I ever see you if you ever put my name in your mouth, you say no, you stop it immediately.
Gilbert: This is the end of the two-minute period, so you’re asking for if there’s any kind of physical threats made on the list, there be zero tolerance for it.
Jeff Roby: Rose is afraid. Now!
Rose Roby: Rose is here, by the way, so people have come on, I have come on.
Jeff Roby: And I am a little afraid. I have thoughts about going to the State Meeting and whether I should take a knife, in somebody tries to assault me. Not that I would. I would never think of doing such a thing, see how it works?
Gilbert: At this point, Jeff, thank you, you’ve said your piece about that. We do not need to address how the list is working, and whether, how we need to address threats and other kinds of accusations and so forth. I’m going to ask that those who are interested in addressing these issues, that we have maybe a working committee call, where we can make proposals over how we are going to proceed, with either some list protocols or something. If anybody on this list who would be interested in being on that working group, in having that conversation, an e-mail conversation this week, let me know.
Howe: I don’t think the Green Party should have a reputation of being a proto-fascist party that tolerates this kind of storm trooper rhetoric. It’s as simple as that, and we need to stand up to it. I know that Jeff has been abrasive to others in the past, but we all have to get over that and deal with what is going on now, and I haven’t seen anything from Jeremy that indicates what it is that Jeff did that gets his ire up. Other than the fact that he’s saying he’s got 15 or 20 people standing behind him that don’t like Jeff. That’s no reason to use the profanity or the sexist remarks and the violent rhetoric that’s been going on. It’s intolerable in any progressive party, and that’s something we need to deal with forthwith.
Gilbert: Before any further going on, I need to, either we approve the agenda as it is, and we continue with it in a separate call, or people say yes, we’re going to address this, as long as we’re moderating it, as long as there’s no personal attacks. So are people okay with having a 10-minute conversation about whatever’s going on, or how to deal with things, or …
Harrell: I agree with Jim that this is a very important thing that we have to deal with, it seems like that, with those present on the call, that there will probably not be a problem. We should deal with this problem as soon as possible.
Gilbert: Is there any objection to having a 10-minute conversation now at the top of the agenda about the behavior and so forth?
Patterson: I don’t think we can accomplish anything in 10 minutes. What you spoke pretty much deals with the parameters, I don’t think there’s any point in discussing it tonight.
Gilbert: I’m going to ask if people who are on this call and would like to address this issue, and it could be everyone on this call, would be willing to be on an additional call, where are we now, January 26, next week on Monday night, a week from now, sooner is fine with me too.
Rose Roby: If we’re not allowed to address this at all, I can’t continue on this call, Jeff can represent St. Pete. I’m not going to be subjected to what I’ve just been subjected to, and be told that I don’t get to say anything about it. Nothing can be accomplished off that. I have nothing to contribute, any more, not under these circumstances.
Gilbert: I am trying to find a balance through this. [Jim] Rose, would it be okay if you had two minutes to address your concerns. Rose, if you had two minutes to talk right now and address your concerns, and we have a call a week from now to continue in more depth on how to respond, and what we can do as a Council.
Rose Roby: How frightened do I get to be during the course of that week. Before that call takes place, how frightened is it acceptable to be, how much fear is acceptable for me to have to experience. I’m not sure. Give me a number.
Gilbert: It sounds like we’re having time spent on this issue right now.
Doran: This is Shawna, why don’t we just move our agenda to next Monday, I’ll call Harry, and we’ll do it next Monday, and we’ll just deal with this today.
Gilbert: So Shawna is suggesting that we move today’s agenda to next Monday, and tonight’s call be about the issues that are going on. That’s what we’ll do.
Rose Roby: Yes, I don’t want to see a repeat of what’s gone on the last couple days anymore. I don’t know what has to happen to make something different happen. I’m going to speak as a human. I know people hate for anyone to do it, it’s so out of … it’s not polite political language for people to speak as human being, but I’m going to speak as a human being I am 22 years younger than my husband Jeff, and I have struggled for years to be able to take care of my husband. in spite of the fact that I have been victimized by a terrible economy that people like to make the butts of their jokes. It’s not as funny to me. I’ve worked my ass off, taking care of various people, not to mention political issues day after day, while I am thought of as living some kind of charmed life of slacker luxury. This is not true. I fear for my life when my husband is being threatened, that the stress of the situation is going to do things to him, and he’s too goddamn macho to understand the damage, but I am not. I’m the one who’s left alone, and I’m not talking about the goddamned St. Pete local, I’m not talking about Jennifer and her friends fantasy of a local that does nothing but take up space and air that could be better used by their friends, that’s not what I’m talking about, and I’m not going to put up with what I’ve put up with the past two days again. I’m not doing it. With that said, if anyone’s thinking “yay,” Rose is leaving the Green Party. That’s not what that meant. What it did mean is that this is not going to keep happening. I’m not going to keep watching my husband being harmed. Because if something happens to him, something bad, I’m the one left alone, and it’s no skin off any of your ass, it’s the skin off my fat ass. I’m just making that clear. I’m not doing this anymore, I’m not playing this game anymore. If somebody doesn’t like something I’ve said, it somebody doesn’t like something that Jeff said, you say, “I don’t like what you said.” You don’t come in with threat after threat after threat while there’s people on this Board, people who claim to want a kinder and gentler environment, people in positions who cheered him on. I don’t need to mention that person by name, I’m proud to admit, I’m not doing this anymore. I don’t know what has to change to make a difference. I’m not doing this anymore, that’s it, I’ve said what I have to say.
Howe: I think we all understand the seriousness of this. I don’t think you’re understating at all the implications for your family. I think it is imperative that this Council take a position that it is intolerable to make physical threats against anyone, whether it’s on the Council or a Green Party member, or someone you run into on the street. The kind of character assassination, personal attacks, just plain not being willing to say what the issue is, and to come on that other people don’t like this person, or that this person has been rude in the past, I don’t know what the issue is, I don’t know what the basis for Jeremy’s comments are, whatever was said, this kind of response is not something that can be tolerated by a progressive political party. I make a motion that the Council takes a strong statement now, that personal attacks, threats of violence, sexual discrimination and claims will not be tolerated, period. If someone is going to be on the Council and make those kinds of statement in an e-mail, they need to have their privileges removed as far as participating in the e-mail list of the Council. I won’t go beyond that, but there obviously has to be something beyond that as well. I won’t go beyond, but ultimately there has to be something beyond that as well. You can’t moderate that kind of person in a party. Suppose that if that person is out, saying these kinds of things at a demonstration or a political meeting, what does that make the Green Party look like. So I make that as a formal proposal.
Gilbert: So you’re making a proposal that if there are personal attacks, I didn’t write it down, but I think you said personal attacks, threats …
Jeff Roby: Threats of violence.
Harrell: I second that proposal. It’s acts of violence, personal ad hominen attacks against a person’s character. Physical threats are much worse, I’m not sure how we deal with those, neither one should be tolerable. Neither one of them should be tolerable in my opinion. I agree that there’s no reason why we shouldn’t take a stand on that right now and reiterate what I think has been our policy and position in the past.
Gilbert: So Jim has proposed and Peter has voiced support for – that there will be…if there’s any personal attacks, threats of violence and there was another phrase that I missed? There are different levels that we…what Jim said was that they are struck from the list…
Howe: Sexist remarks would be the best way to put the other, ? and the overuse of profanity, there’s no place for that in our mailing list.
Gilbert: The question is what to do in response, how to interpret what that level is. For example if one person is moderating and takes it upon himself or herself to say okay this is over the line, how are things addressed and how are they enforced and what exactly is being enforced? Would anybody like to make a proposal that clarifies those?
Harrell: I think it depends on the situation, for instance a phone call and the CC list probably provide different ways of intervening, to censor a person or suspending them temporarily from communications for instance… but the exact means might be different. But that’s the kind of thing that should happen during a discussion if the person can’t control themselves and participate in the discussion and engages in those types of attacks.
Howe: Just to clarify, I’m not trying to make a proposal a guideline for how we police this issue I’m only wanting the Council to go on record that it’s horrible. And I would leave it to Cathy and Josh to administer the list if there’s a need to remove someone’s privileges. Specifically I don’t want to give into that discussion at this point I think if we can just go on record as a council that this is intolerable and action should be taken we don’t need to discuss the level of severity of the action at this point. That wasn’t my intention.
Rose Roby: There’s a standard of pornography, “I know it when I see it.” So what’s considered over the line? I think there’s people here who know it when they see it. But I also want to add that if I get removed with a comment I make that’s considered over the line, I would much rather that happen than this anything goes free-for-all. I that means I get censored, If a decision was made that something I said was over line, I may not agree with it, I might write a personal email and ask what I said that was considered over the line, but I’ll accept it. I’m going to accept the authority of people to make that decision and if that happens to me I’ll be okay with it. That’s part of doing business. As Jim’s saying it’s not just this written in stone standard. But I would much rather that happen then we just keep repeating what’s going on, this can’t just keep repeating.
Gilbert: Okay, that’s interesting to hear.
Griffin: I would simply say that if you don’t want people to attack you don’t attack them first. That’s pretty much how the majority of us live our lives. We treat other people how we want to be treated. And okay, I’ve been in this thing for almost 2 years now, everybody knows how I am for the most part and I’ve sat by and kept my mouth shut for a lot of stuff, and I even sat one to one in a personal phone call, please leave my name out of this personally. So if people don’t like getting attacked and people find themselves being attacked a lot, maybe it’s time to look around a little bit. What I’m doing here, there’s a reason for this. I’m fucking pissed.
Rose Roby: May I speak?
Griffin: Hold on a second, let me speak here. I’m looking at a list of literally, it’s just that I know of, guys, at least 15- 20 people who feel the exact way that I do, the same exact way. This isn’t me finding a cheerleading …
Rose Roby: This is inappropriate.
Howe: This is completely out of order.
Griffin: People have left this party because of this stuff.
Rose Roby: This is inappropriate.
Griffin: This is not completely out of order. People have left this party because of this stuff, people have been alienated, they’ve left, people complain about this issue, and you all know it, constantly, and nobody wants to step up and deal with it, so if we’ve got to get so far down into the mud to finally deal with it, then let’s do it. I don’t act like this with people.
Rose Roby: You must be feeling so very proud …
Griffin: There you go.
Henry: Rose, please.
Gilbert: Let’s have everybody take a breath, I’m not sure if everybody’s on the call, Jeremy, if you have something to say, let’s not go into the specifics …
Griffin: It’s very simple, it’s the Golden Rule, treat other people how you want to be treated. If you don’t want me to come at me, leave me the fuck alone.
Gilbert: Jeff, before you go, did I hear somebody say “shut up”?
Henry: I don’t want to hear what Jeff has got to say. I’ve just lost my best co-chair in the Green Party up here [Bay County] because of Jeff and Rose, what Jeremy is saying is the truth, dammit, and I’m sorry but it’s the truth.
Gilbert: What I want to bring up is that we have a long history of the GPF Council, the last years have been very tough, we’ve had a lot of fractionalizing, a lot of fighting, a lot of behavior, and there are a lot of scars left, raw. I understand that. It’s hard to say let’s start from scratch, from zero, because people who are hurt, they’re still responding to things that have happened before in the past year, but there has been gradual and some dramatic changes in the past year, and I do appreciate those changes. That doesn’t mean things are healed, and everything is working properly, that insults and attacks don’t happen, and it’s hard to start from zero. So I’d like for us to try to do that. So what I’d like for us to be addressing is policy, ideas, for how to maintain ourselves forward with respect and safety. So if we can try to not rehash what already has happened and in the future we can, we can start this from zero …
Henry: I wish we could, but we can’t …
Gilbert: I appreciate everybody sticking through this, it’s very difficult, let’s start from zero if we can, we’re making policy and suggestions to make our space safe as best as possible.
Henry: Ever since Jeff and Rose came into the party, there have been problems, there’s at least 15 people who have walked away because of what’s happened in St. Pete, and what’s happened with other people in that part of the state, and I’m 360 miles away. It’s true.
Gilbert: I am asking if the complaints are generated from the last six months, or before.
Henry: It’s true.
Gilbert: I’m asking if this has been in the last six months, the last six months have been relatively calm, I’m asking if the complaints have been generated in the last six months.
Henry: The biggest one has been in the last six months, Jeff and Rose were so rude to Kelly, she just walked away. Kelly couldn’t even plug into things, she wasn’t going to be part of the Green Party of Florida because of them. And she’s never even met them. They’ve been so mean and nasty and how cold they can be that she’s just walked away. She’s been here helping me for 12 years, and now she’s gone.
Rose Roby: Are you calling for an actual purge? I want to know.
Henry: [shouting] I’m telling you how it is.
Rose Roby: No, where do we go from here? Do we have to be purged?
Henry: [shouting] If you don’t behave, you should be.
Rose Roby: If you don’t behave, you should be? Do you want to put out a proposal for our purging.
Doran: No, what he said that if you don’t behave, Henry didn’t say to purge you.
Rose Roby: He just said he would, he wants to.
Henry: [shouting] I just asked you to be nice, you’re not nice at all.
Jeff Roby: I have a procedural suggestion.
[clarifying the stack]
Howe: Point of order. There is a proposal on the floor, and we’re getting bogged down in ad hominen attacks.
Jeff Roby: I have a procedural suggestion that will move this. Let’s do a little bit of parliamentary procedure. So I have to give Jeremy his due, so I have what I call the Jeremy Amendment.
Griffin: I don’t want my name attached to anything that comes out of your mouth …
Gilbert: In respect, would you please call it something else.
Jeff Roby: The Jeremy Amendment! I have the floor. Do I have to shout?
Griffin: Why don’t you come over to my house if you want to shout, you fucking loudmouth! I’m right on the other side of the bridge, if you want to start yelling at me.
Gilbert: No, you do not have the floor. You have the floor only if you speak about the amendment only if you are going to speak about the amendment only if it does not have his name. You can make the amendment.
Jeff Roby: I appeal the chair.
Gilbert: Appeal the chair?
Jeff Roby: Well, the chair doesn’t have unilateral power …
Showen: Yes it does.
Jeff Roby: Let’s call it the amendment.
Gilbert: Okay, go ahead.
Jeff Roby: Inspired by Jeremy’s comment.
Griffin: There you go, you had to get that fucking in, that little fucking snooty bullshit, that [unintelligible]
Gilbert: Is the amendment a positive thing?
Jeff Roby: I don’t know if it’s a positive thing, it’s a way to move this on, and if you weren’t trying to shut me up, it would be on the floor and dealt with already …
Gilbert: If you would not include other people’s names.
Jeff Roby: I just took his name off it …
Griffin: It’s like dealing with a 5-year old.
Jeff Roby: I wish I could say it. Do I have the floor?
Gilbert: Yes.
Jeff Roby: Thank you. That anyone who feels attacked or insulted has the right to be as abusive, violently threatening, or anything else, if they feel it is merited. Do I have a second?
Howe: Not a friendly amendment. I do not accept it as a friendly amendment.
Jeff Roby: I didn’t say it was a friendly amendment. Do I have a second?
Gilbert: J don’t think so.
Jeff Roby: That’s fine. the way it would work is that if it’s an amendment, and it’s not a friendly amendment. Then the order of business becomes to vote it up or down, and if it’s voted down, then it’s off the table. See how that would work? Otherwise, we could keep going on and off and people are pissed off … It’s a way to put an end to it.
Gilbert: That’s an amendment to what Jim has put on the table and so it’s up to Jim whether to accept it …
Jeff Roby: It’s not a friendly amendment, it’s an unfriendly amendment, so you vote it up or down, and I of course I will vote it down. Then we can get it off the table. Do you get it?
Gilbert: I got it.
Jeff Roby: I want to get it off the table so we can get down to discussing and voting on Jim’s amendment.
Griffin: [interrupting] This is an incredible waste, once again …
Jeff Roby: It’s parliamentary procedure, it’s actually helpful in facilitating matters.
Gilbert: If understand correctly, this amendment, anyone can escalate, if they feel threatened …
Jeff Roby: If they feel insulted or anything else.
Gilbert: This is a point where we can vote for it against it, sounded like nobody was in favor of it …
Jeff Roby: Then it’s off the table.
Howe: Parliamentary procedure is that if it didn’t get a second, then it just dies …
Griffin: [interrupting] Oh my god.
Jeff Roby: Now we get on to Jim’s proposal.
Gilbert: This is not a procedural proposal, it was more of a stand, that the Council is against any kind of personal attack or threat of violence.
Jeff Roby: It’s a motion, that the Council is resolved that: … the rest of it, that’s the proper format. Then the rest of what Jim said.
Gilbert: Be it a motion?
Jeff Roby: Be it resolved, and the motion itself is “Be it resolved …” and the rest of what Jim said.
Gilbert: Is there anyone opposed to what Jim said.
Agosto: I vote no. This is ridiculous. Obviously we all don’t think this is appropriate.
Gilbert: Are we doing the vote right now? Does anyone object to the proposal that Jim put forth.?
Agosto: I object, I just want it to be clear that I object.
Griffin: I think maybe there should be some kind of amendment that when somebody reaches double figures in the number of people who refuse to work with them , that person should be subject to something. If we have a one-man wrecking crew going through this thing, we’re in double figures, let’s add that in there. You guys might not like how I deal with things.
Rose Roby: You have made your point, you keep making it, and I want it to stop.
Griffin: Tough shit.
Jeff Roby: Point of order. I think the facilitator should do some facilitating.
Griffin: I don’t know how Tampa feels about all this stuff. There’s other people who aren’t even on here. The things we’re talking about, they should have been in place ahead of time. We can try to re-invent the wheel here. They didn’t do any good ahead of time. The rules are already there, they have to be enforced at some point.
Gilbert: Actually, we don’t have rules with moderation and how we deal with problems on the list …
Griffin: Maybe there’s nothing formal, I don’t know, is that going to make a difference, does anyone see that as slowing the 800-pound gorilla?
Chandler: I actually think I understand a little bit better, it may have started on the crowd-sourcing calls, maybe it was Jim asking about how this all start. I am also very angry about how the things have been going on on the crowd-funding calls, and I’m very disappointed. I have a suggestion that might help us. We need more compassion, and we need more patience. So maybe we could try something like Google Chat, and everyone’s on video, and we have a facilitator who’s very much in control, and people face-to-face have to be responsible for their own behavior, and when one person is constantly shutting people down, the facilitator has to see that in the antecedents, in the beginning of that, not when it’s already hurt a lot of people and has already caused a lot of pain and suffering. I don’t know whether we need to bring in an outside person or not, but I really think Cathy has a lot of skills in facilitating, but if we had 11 people on Google Chat, all looking at each other’s faces. But I completely understand how things have gotten out of control. It is really absurd. It does start, as Jeremy said, with personal attacks that are not tempered in any way, shape or form, and the personal attacks that are being made, and that person never takes responsibility for it.
Agosto: I am going to try to avoid using names, but I believe our problems are structural. At our last state meeting, I had suggested doing away with the e-list altogether, maybe a little extreme, but in hindsight, maybe it wasn’t. We have serious cultural problems. People have to assume that everyone is acting in good faith, but I have never seen that people talk to each other in abusive, condescending ways, it’s a matter of tone, I see this in pretty much every exchange. People delve in these personal attacks. There are way too many posts, some people have way more time than others, and I think that’s part of the issue. Such people are able to keep putting their ideas out there, and other aren’t able to respond, and when people do respond, it gets nasty. Nobody wants to be involved. We have to reduce the number of posts on the list. It needs to be moderated. It’s very difficult to blame either party, because we don’t have the mechanism to stop this stuff once it starts. We can expel whoever, but we are not able to deal with this structurally. Jeremy asks whether it will make a difference, having these procedures. I think it will. Once these procedures are in place. If someone chooses to ignore them, didn’t respect them, other steps can be taken. Maybe then it is time to purge people. I think it’s the most extreme thing a group can do, but we can’t tolerate disrespect.
Gilbert: We have talked about a couple things. DJ has suggested Google Chat, Victor about the quality and quantity of posts, I want to know if people are resonating with these suggestions.
Harrell: They do resonate with me. You indicated on the CC list to put a delay for some individuals or for all of us, delay or needs to be approved. Rose has also indicated that we need to entrust this to an individual such as yourself as co-chair, and maybe there needs to get an understanding of what is involved to do this on the CC list. Let’s move on with it.
Jeff Roby: Move the question.
Gilbert: So the question is who in general resonates with these structural ideas whether to have moderation …
Jeff Roby: No. Move the question means that we vote on Jim’s proposal because that’s what’s on the table.
Gilbert: I guess we need to vote on that, because what I heard was a couple people said they weren’t prepared to vote on it. Tampa said they weren’t prepared. My thought was that maybe that proposal needs to be sent to the list …
Jeff Roby: The way to move that is to move to table.
Gilbert: Can table the proposal that you posted to send to the Council list.
Howe: No, I want a vote. I’ll restate it, or give it a subtitle. Will the Green Party of Florida CC go on record in support of Green values. I’ll restate that the gist of the proposal is that we will not tolerate threats of violence on our list, we will not tolerate ad hominen attacks on our list, that we will not tolerate sexist attacks on our list …
Griffin: Sexist attacks. Where did that come from? That’s the one I’m confused on.
Howe: In many of your e-mails, what did you say?
Griffin: Dick wagging. That’s not sexist.
Howe: You don’t think so.
Griffin: No. That means bragging.
Howe: That’s the summation of the proposal, and Orange votes yes.
Jeff Roby: St. Pete votes yes.
Griffin: Tampa would like some time to think about this.
Gilbert: We can go ahead with a vote. DJ, can you call the counties.
Doran: Shawna has a hold on this. I thought that as Greens, we all accepted those values anyway. So if we haven’t been talking like that, I don’t understand why we need to do this as an oath. As a Quaker, this sounds like some kind of an oath. Alachua can do what it wants, but I step aside.
Gilbert: DJ, go down the list, if a county wants to do individual roles, or as a group.
Agosto: I’ll vote no because it’s a waste of time.
Doran: We don’t have a quorum, so this is ridiculous.
Chandler: It’s not voting through, so it doesn’t really matter, not enough people are voting through.
Gilbert: Go through some more.
Chandler: Is Jim there? Is that Jim? Maybe he’ll come back.
Howe: Can you hear me now? Is there a question for me?
Chandler: We’re asking the counties about the proposal. Did I hear from Henry?
Henry: Abstain.
St. Pete: Yes.
Miami: I abstain for the same reason as Broward.
Griffin: I don’t know what everybody in Tampa would feel like, but I think this is absolutely a waste of time. C’mon, let’s go.
Gilbert: Next thing up, structural changes were suggested, doing a Google Chat, we can try something like that.
Jeff Roby: Point of information, I thought having Cathy as moderator of the list was next in line.
Gilbert: In general, would people like to have the co-chairs as moderators of the list.
Agosto: Without reducing the number of posts on the list, I think that’s a chore that will never end. I think we have to reduce the number of posts. Maybe we can make rules for what we want.
Howe: What’s the point of having a moderator if we’ve already decided that anything goes. We’ve taken the position that What does the structural discussion matter if we’ve already taken the position that we’re going to tolerate anything because someone thinks it’s merited if they don’t like someone else or what they might have said six months or six years ago.
Gilbert: I don’t believe that just because the proposal doesn’t mean that anything goes.
Howe: We just said anything goes. We’re unwilling to take a position against threats of physical violence against members on the list. We’re unwilling to take a position against sexism on the list.
Griffin: [interrupting] in order to … a problem.
Gilbert: I don’t believe that because your proposal didn’t pass, there has not been a proposal.
Howe: In fact it does mean …
Griffin: [interrupting] No, not really, only a fool would assume that
Howe: … question the clear values of the Green Party on our list.
Griffin: [interrupting] They guy’s just … hearing of that on a regular basis, okay?
Gilbert: So everybody pause. The last thing we’re looking at is the moderation of the list. Victor brought up the point that it’s impossible to keep on top of a flow. If moderation is desired and we do vote for it. If we do like national, it’s not just up to the moderators to watch each e-mail, but other people can bring up a point when there’s a problem. Whether you have certain standards can be addressed even if Jim’s proposal didn’t pass just now. I didn’t hear a proposal pass that anything goes.
Jeff Roby: Speaking to Jim’s point, if threats of physical violence were acceptable yesterday, and were acceptable today, in the face of the failure of Jim’s motion, it would seem that threats of physical violence are acceptable tonight and tomorrow and maybe even Wednesday.
Doran: [interrupting] This is outrageous.
Jeff Roby: Therefore, something …
Doran: [interrupting] This is outrageous.
Jeff Roby: Therefore, something needs to be figured out to deal with that.
Chandler: I’d like to go back to the moderation of the e-mail lists. I think the e-mail lists were completely out of control.
[discussion of tech, e-mail restrictions, membership on website, forum, threads]
Chandler: We should eliminate all threats of force, threats of violence. Need to uplift ourselves, Stop all the sarcasm. The sarcasm is past the point of reasonable behavior. Need to revamp, move ahead, stop all this ridiculous discussion. There is nobody here that believes threats of violence belong in any of our discussions.
Gilbert: You’re suggesting that we have e-lists for business only.
Doran: Reading from our GP platform on non-violence. “We promote non-violent methods to oppose practices and policies with which we disagree, and will guide our actions toward lasting personal, community and global peace.” The reality is that we should have all been able to self-govern ourselves in all these communications. I don’t mind saying that it was when Jen first backed Jeff, when you were first getting involved, Jeremy is correct about a bunch of stuff. He shouldn’t have talked like that, it lowers his authority or position. That’s all true. We need to be moderated at this point, we can’t go through all this minutiae and all these e-mails ourselves. The frustration has reached up the ass. Some of you may remember, you got in Alan Kobrin’s face two years ago, I had to ask David Kline to come over and stop you when you were right in the face of Alan …
Jeff Roby: Shawna, Alan came up and kissed me on the lips without my permission, for chrissake, Shawna.
Doran: [screaming] He was talking to you like a normal person. Alan is not an attack person.
Jeff Roby: Then why did he come up and kiss me on the lips.
Doran: [screaming] Henry is right also. And Jeremy is right also. Everybody’s heart is beating, and it wouldn’t be a surprise if someone was having chest pains. [shouting] Good guys, don’t give up, hang in there, we’ve got to do this for the sake of the children.
Harrell: I agree with DJ over the possibility of a forum. We can’t move quickly enough, so we need to see what we can do. In terms of Victor’s suggestion, I wish we could reduce the number of posts. Let’s move ahead with moderation for the CC list ASAP.
Gilbert: Rose?
Rose Roby: What else can I say. Do whatever you want with the forums. I have only been able to reasonably deal with the Green Party when I have no engagement with the State, and I only got involved with the State, which is most of the time. I only got involved because I wanted to push Didier’s campaign because that’s what I had to contribute. On a statewide, I have nothing else to contribute to the Green Party. I am going to try to get another delegate from St. Pete. I’m not resigning as delegate until another one is found. But as soon as that is dealt with, if I’m asked to be an alternate delegate, I might do that. That’s as much as I have to say about any of this anymore. It’s no longer a situation I can tolerate. I know Jeremy wants to pile on my despicability. You’ve said it and you can say it again. There’s not much else to say. We’re going to get St. Pete together. I am going to push somebody else, to do the second delegate role. Even if it’s not gender balances, if it has to be two men, it has to be two men, I will be off this list ASAP.
Griffin: I was just going to say that I know three Green Party members that maybe they could talk to. If they’re looking for another delegate. I’d start there, right.
Gilbert: Do you want to send contact information to Jeff and Rose.
Griffin: Sure.
Gilbert: Okay, thank you.
[rambling discussion of forums and Facebook, etc.]
[agreement to have moderation on the list until next Board call, send batches three times a day]
Henry: [impassioned plea for brevity]
Doran: Yay! Great job, Cathy! Yaaaaay!
[adjourn]
[exeunt omnes]
